[The witness Markov resumed the stand.]

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Witness, when did you, together with the other members of the commission, perform the autopsies of these eight corpses? What date was it exactly?

MARKOV: That was on 30 April, early in the day.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: And, on the basis of your personal observations, you decided that the corpses were in the ground 1 year or 18 months at the most?

MARKOV: That is correct.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Before putting the next question to you, I should like you to give me a brief answer to the following question: Is it correct that in the practice of Bulgarian medical jurisprudence the protocol about the autopsy contains two parts, a description and the deductions?

MARKOV: Yes. In our practice, as well as in the practice of other countries, so far as I know, it is done in the following way: First of all, we give a description and then the deduction.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Was a deduction contained in the record you made regarding the autopsy?

MARKOV: My record of the autopsy contained only a description without any conclusion.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Why?

MARKOV: Because from the papers which were given to us there I understood that they wanted us to say that the corpses had been in the ground for 3 years. This could be deduced from the papers which were shown to us in the little peasant hut about which I have already spoken.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: By the way, were these papers shown to you before the autopsy or afterward?

MARKOV: Yes, the papers were given us 1 day before the autopsy.

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MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: So you were. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you are interrupting the interpreter all the time. Before the interpreter has finished the answer, you have put another question. It is very difficult for us to hear the interpreter.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Thank you for your indication, Mr. President.

MARKOV: Inasmuch as the objective deduction regarding the autopsy I performed was in contradiction with this version, I did not make any deductions.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Consequently you did not make any deduction because the objective data of the autopsy testified to the fact that the corpses had been in the ground, not 3 years, but only 18 months?

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you must remember that it is a double translation, and unless you pause more than you are pausing, your voice comes in upon the interpreter's and we cannot hear the interpreter.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Very well, Mr. President.

MARKOV: Yes, that is quite correct.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Was there unanimity among the members of the commission regarding the time the corpses had been in the graves?

MARKOV: Most of the members of the delegation who performed the autopsies the Katyn wood made their deductions without answering the essential question regarding the time the corpses had been buried. Some of them, as for instance, Professor Hajek, spoke about immaterial things; as for instance, that one of the killed had had pleurisy. Some of the others, as for instance, Professor Birkle from Bucharest, cut off some hair from a corpse in order to determine the age of the corpse. In my opinion that was quite immaterial. Professor Palmieri, on the basis of the autopsy that he performed, said that the corpse had been in the ground over a year but he did not determine exactly how long.

The only one who gave a definite statement in regard to the time the corpses had been buried was Professor Miloslavich from Zagreb, and he said it was 3 years. However, when the German book regarding Katyn was published, I read the result of his impartial statement regarding the corpse on which he had performed the autopsy. I had the impression that the corpse on which he had performed the autopsy did not differ in its stage of decomposition from the other corpses. This led me to think that his statement that the corpses had

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been in the ground for 3 years did not coincide with the facts of his description.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I would like to ask you to reply to the following question. Were there many skulls found by the members of the commission with signs of so-called pseudocallus?

By the way, inasmuch as this term is not known in the usual books on medical jurisprudence and in general criminalistic terminology, I should like you to give us an exact explanation of what Professor Orsos, of Budapest, means by the term pseudocallus.

THE PRESIDENT: Would you repeat that question?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Were there many skulls with signs of so-called pseudocallus which were submitted to the members of the commission? Inasmuch as this term is not known in the usual books on medical jurisprudence, I should like you to give us a detailed explanation of what Professor Orsos means by the term pseudo callus.

THE PRESIDENT: What are you saying the skulls had? You asked if there were many skulls with something or other.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I see this term for the first time, myself, Mr. President. It is pseudocallus. It seems to be a Latin' term of some sort of corn which is formed on the outer surface of

the cerebral substance.

THE PRESIDENT: Can you spell the word in Latin?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.

[The prosecutor submitted a paper to the President.]

THE PRESIDENT: What you have written here is p-s-e-r-d-o. Do you mean p-s-e-u-d-o, which means false?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, that is right, pseudo.

THE PRESIDENT: Now then, put your question again, and try to put it shortly.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes.

[Turning to the witness.] Were there many skulls with signs of so-called pseudocallus shown to the members of the commission? Will you please give an exact explanation of this term of Professor Orsos'.

MARKOV: Professor Orsos spoke to us regarding pseudocallus at a general conference of the delegates. That took place on 30 April, in the afternoon, in the building where the field laboratory of Dr. Butz in Smolensk was located.

Professor Orsos described the term pseudocallus as meaning some sediment of indissoluble salt, of calcium, and other salts on the inside of the cranium. Professor Orsos stated that, according to his

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observations in Hungary, this happened if the corpses have been in the ground for at least 3 years. When Professor Orsos stated this at the scientific conference, none of the delegates said anything either for or against it. I deduced from that that this term pseudocallus was as unknown to the other delegates as it was to me.

At the same conference Professor Orsos showed us such a pseudocallus on one of the skulls.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I should like you to answer the following question: What number did the corpse have from which this skull with signs of pseudocallus was taken?

MARKOV: The corpse from which the skull was taken and which was noted in the book bore the Number 526. From this I deduced that this corpse was exhumed before our arrival at Katyn, inasmuch as all the other corpses on which we performed autopsies on 30 April had numbers which ran above 800. It was explained to us that as soon as a corpse was exhumed it immediately received a consecutive number.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Ten me this, please. Did you notice any pseudocallus on the skulls of the corpses on which you and your colleagues performed autopsies?

MARKOV: On the skull of the corpse on which I performed an autopsy, there was some sort of pulpy substance in place of the brain, but I never noticed any sign of pseudocallus. The other dele

gates-after the explanation of Professor Orsos-likewise did not state that they had found any pseudocallus in the other skulls. Even Butz and his co-workers, who had examined the corpses before our arrival, did not mention any sign of pseudocallus.

Later on, in a book which was published by the Germans and which contained the report of Butz, I noticed that Butz referred to pseudocallus in order to give more weight to his statement that the corpses had been in the ground for 3 years.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is to say, that of the 11,000 corpses only one skull was submitted to you which had pseudocallus?

MARKOV: That is quite correct.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I should like you to describe to the Tribunal in detail the state of the clothing which you found on the corpses.

MARKOV: In general the clothing was well preserved, but of course it was damp due to the decomposition of the corpses. When we pulled off the clothing to undress the corpses, or when we tried to take off the shoes, the clothing did not tear nor did the shoes fall apart at the seams. I even had the impression that this clothing could have been used again, after having been cleaned.

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There were some papers found in the pockets of the clothing of the corpse on which I performed the autopsy, and these papers were also impregnated with the dampness of the corpse. Some of the Germans who were present when I was performing the autopsy asked me to describe those papers and their contents; but I refused to do it, thinking that this was not the duty of a doctor. In fact I had already noticed the previous day that with the help of the dates contained in those papers, they were trying to make us think that the corpses had remained in the ground for 3 years.

Therefore, I wanted to base my deductions only on the actual condition of the corpses. Some of the other delegates who performed autopsies also found some papers in the clothing of the corpses. The papers which had been found in the clothing of the corpse on which I performed the autopsy were put into a cover which bore the same number as the corpse, Number 827. Later on, in the book which was published by the Germans, I perceived that some of the delegates described the contents of the papers which were found on the corpses.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I should like to ask you to reply to the following question. On what impartial medico-judicial data did the commission base the deduction that the corpses had remained in the earth not less than 3 years?

THE PRESIDENT: Will you put the question again? I did not understand the question.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I asked on what impartial medico-judicial data were the deductions of the protocol of the International Medical Commission based, which stated that the corpses had remained in the ground not less than 3 years?

THE PRESIDENT: Has he said that that was the deduction he made-not less than 3 years?

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): He has not said that.

THE PRESIDENT: He has not said that at all. He never said that he made the deduction that the corpses remained in the ground not less than 3 years.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: He did not make this deduction; but Professor Markov, together with the other members of the commission, signed a report of the International Commission.

THE PRESIDENT: I know; but that is why I ask you to repeat your question. The question that was translated to us was: On what grounds did you make your deduction that the corpses had remained in the ground not less than 3 years-which is the opposite of what he said.

Now will you put the question again?

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MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV. Very well.

[Turning to the witness.] I am not asking you about your personal minutes, Witness, but about the general record of the entire commission. I am asking you on what impartial medico-judicial data were the deductions of the entire commission based, that the corpses had remained in the earth not less than 3 years. On the record of the deductions your signature figures among those of the other members of the commission.

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Now, then, Colonel Smirnov, will you put the question again.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.

[Turning to the witness.] I was asking you on what impartial medicojudicial data were the deductions of the commission based- not the individual report of Dr. Markov, in which there are no deductions-but the deductions of the entire commission, that the corpses had remained not less than 3 years in the ground?

MARKOV: The collective protocol of the commission which was signed by all the delegates was very scant regarding the real medicojudicial data. Concerning the condition of the corpses, only one sentence in the report was stated, namely that the corpses were in various stages of decomposition, but there was no description of the real extent of decomposition.

Thus, in my opinion, this deduction was based on the papers found on the corpses and on testimony of the witnesses, but not on the actual medicojudicial data. As far as medical jurisprudence is concerned, they tried to support this deduction by the statement of Professor Orsos regarding the finding of pseudocallus in the skull of corpse Number 526.

But, according to my conviction, since this skull was the only one with signs of pseudocallus, it was wrong to arrive at a definite conclusion regarding the stage of decomposition of thousands of corpses which were contained in the Katyn graves. Besides, the observation of Professor Orsos regarding pseudocallus was made in Hungary; that is to say, under quite different soil and climatic conditions, and withal in individual graves and not in mass graves, as was the case in Katyn.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: You spoke about the testimony of witnesses. Did the members of the commission have the opportunity personally to interrogate those witnesses, especially the Russian witnesses?

MARKOV: We did not have the opportunity of having any contact with the indigenous population. On the contrary, immediately upon our arrival at the hotel in Smolensk, Butz told us that we were in a military zone, and that we did not have the right to

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walk around in the city without being accompanied by a member of the German Army, or to speak with the inhabitants of the place, or to make photographs. In reality, during the time we were there, we did not have any contact with the local inhabitants.

On the first day of our arrival in the Katyn wood, that is to say, on 29 April, in the morning, several Russian civilians were brought under German escort to the graves. Immediately upon our arrival at Smolensk some of the depositions of the local witnesses were submitted to us. The depositions were typed. When these witnesses were brought to the Katyn wood, we were told that these witnesses were the ones who gave the testimonies which had been submitted to us. There was no regular interrogation of the witnesses which could have been recorded, or were recorded. Professor Orsos started the conversation with the witnesses and told us that he could speak Russian because he had been a prisoner of war in Russia during the first World War. He began to speak with a man, an elderly man whose name, so far as I can remember, was Kiselov. Then he spoke to a second witness, whose last name so far as I can remember was Andrejev. All the conversation lasted a few minutes only. As our Bulgarian language is rather similar to the Russian, I tried also to speak to some of the witnesses...

THE PRESIDENT: Don't you think that should be left to cross-examination? Can't these details be left to cross-examination?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.

I would ask you, Witness, to interrupt the reply to this question and to answer the following one: At the time you signed this general report of the commission, was it quite clear to you that the murders were perpetrated in Katyn not earlier than the last quarter of 1941, and that 1940, in any case, was excluded?

MARKOV: Yes, this was absolutely clear to me and that is why I did not make any deductions in the minutes which I made on my findings in the Katyn wood.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Why did you sign then this general report, which was incorrect in your opinion?

MARKOV: In order to make it quite clear under what conditions I signed this report, I should like to say a few words on how it was made up and how it was signed.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Excuse me, I would like to put a question to you which defines more accurately this matter. Was this report actually signed on 30 April 1941 in the town of Smolensk or was it signed on another date and at another place?

MARKOV: It was not signed in Smolensk on 30 April but was signed on 1 May at noon, at the airport which was called Bela.

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MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Will you please tell the Tribunal under what conditions it was signed.

MARKOV: The compilation of this record was to be done at the same conference which I already mentioned and which took place in the laboratory of Butz in the afternoon of 30 April. Present at this conference were all the delegates and all the Germans who had arrived with us from Berlin: Butz and his assistants, General Staff Physician Holm, the chief physician of the Smolensk sector, and also other German Army officials who were unknown to me. Butz stated that the Germans were only present as hosts, but actually the conference was presided over by General Staff Physician Holm and the work was performed under the direction of Butz. The secretary of the conference was the personal lady secretary of Butz who took down the report. However, I never saw these minutes. Butz and Orsos came with a prepared draft to this conference, a sort of protocol; but I never learned who ordered them to draw up such a protocol. This protocol was read by Butz and then a question was raised regarding the state and the age of the young pines which were in the clearings of the Katyn wood. Butz was of the opinion that in these clearings there were graves too.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Excuse me for interrupting you. Did you have any evidence that any graves were actually found in these clearings?

MARKOV: No. During the time we were there, no new graves were opened. As some of the delegates said they were not competent to express their opinion regarding the age of these trees, General Holm gave an order to bring a German who was an expert on forestry. He showed us the cut of the trunk of a small tree and from the number of circles in this trunk, he deduced the trees were 5 years old.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Excuse me; I interrupt you again. You, yourself-can you state here that this tree was actually cut down from the grave and not from any other place in the clearing?

MARKOV: I can say only that in the Katyn wood there were some clearings with small trees and that, while driving back to Smolensk, we took a little tree with us in the bus, but I do not know whether there were any graves where these trees were standing. As I have already stated, no graves were laid open in our presence.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I would request you to continue your reply, but very briefly and not to detain the attention, of the Tribunal with unnecessary details.

MARKOV: Some editorial notes were made in connection with this protocol, but I do not remember what they were. Then Orsos

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and Butz were entrusted with the final drafting of the record. The signing of the record was intended to take place on the same night at a banquet which was organized in a German Army hospital. At this banquet Butz arrived with the minutes and he started reading them, but the actual signing did not take place for reasons which are still not clear to me. It was stated that this record would have to be rewritten, so the banquet lasted until 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. Then Professor Palmieri told me that the Germans were not pleased with the contents of the protocol and that they were carrying on telephone conversations with Berlin and that perhaps there would not even be a protocol at all.

Indeed, having spent the night in Smolensk without having signed the record, we took off from Smolensk on the morning of 1 May. I personally had the impression that no protocol at all would be issued and I was very pleased about that. On the way to Smolensk, as well as on our way back, some of the delegates asked to stop in Warsaw in order to see the city, but we were told that it was impossible because of military reasons.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: This has nothing to do with the subject. Please keep to the facts.

MARKOV: Around noon we arrived at the airport which was called Bela. The airport was apparently a military airfield because of the temporary military barracks I saw there. We had dinner there and immediately after dinner, notwithstanding the fact that we were not told that the signing of the minutes would take place on the way to Berlin, we were submitted copies of the protocol for signature. During the signing a number of military persons were present, as there were no other people except military personnel on this airfield. I was rather struck by the fact that on the one hand the records were already completed in Smolensk but were not submitted to us for signing there, and on the other hand that they did not wait till we arrived in Berlin a few hours later. They were submitted to us for signing at this isolated military airfield. This was the reason why I signed the report, in spite of the conviction I had acquired during the autopsy which I had performed at Smolensk.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is to say, the date and the locality which are shown in the protocol are incorrect?

MARKOV: Yes, that is so.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: And you signed it because you felt yourself compelled to?

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, I don't think it is proper for you to put leading questions to him. He has stated the fact. It is useless to go on stating conclusions about it.

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MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Very well, Mr. President. I have no further questions to put to the witness. !

THE PRESIDENT: Does anyone want to cross-examine him?

DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I should like to ask a question

concerning the legal proceedings first. Each side was to call three witnesses before the Court. This witness, as I understand it, has not only testified to facts but has also made statements which can be called an expert judgment. He has not only expressed himself as an expert witness, as we say in German law, but also as an expert. If the Court is to listen to these statements made by the witness as an expert, I should like to have the opportunity for the Defense also to call in an expert.

THE PRESIDENT: No, Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal will not hear more than three witnesses on either side. You could have called any expert you wanted or any member of the experts who made the German examination. It was your privilege to call any of them.

DR. STAHMER: Witness, how long have you been active in the field of medical jurisprudence?

MARKOV: I have been working in the field of medical jurisprudence since the beginning of 1927 in the faculty for medical jurisprudence of the University in Sofia, first as an assistant and now I am professor of medical jurisprudence. I am not a staff professor

at the university. My position can be designated by the German word "Ausserordentlicher Professor" (university lecturer).

DR. STAHMER: Before your visit to Katyn did your government tell you that you were to participate in a political action without consideration of your scientific qualification?

MARKOV: I was not told so literally, but in the press the Katyn question was discussed as a political subject.

DR. STAHMER: Did you feel free in regard to your scientific "conscience" at that time?

MARKOV: At what time?

DR. STAHMER: At the time when you went to Katyn?

MARKOV: The question is not quite clear to me; I should like you to explain it.

DR. STAHMER: Did you consider the task you had to carry out there a political one or a scientific one?

MARKOV: I understood this task from the very first moment as a political one and therefore I tried to evade it.

DR. STAHMER: Did you realize the outstanding political importance of this task?

MARKOV: Yes; from everything I read in the press.

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DR. STAHMER: In your examination yesterday you said that when you arrived at Katyn the graves had already been opened and certain corpses had been carefully laid out. Do you mean to say that these corpses were not taken from the graves at all?

MARKOV: No, I should not say that, inasmuch as it was obvious that corpses were taken out of these graves and besides I saw that some corpses were still in the graves.

DR. STAHMER: Then, in order to state this positively, you had no reason to think that the corpses inspected by the commission were not taken from these mass graves?

THE PRESIDENT: He did not know where they came from, did he'

MARKOV: Evidently from the graves which were open.

DR. STAHMER: You have already made statements to the effect that, as a result of the medicojudicial examination by this International Commission, a protocol, a record was taken down. You have furthermore stated that you signed this protocol.

Mr. President, this protocol is contained in its full text in the official data published by the German Government on this incident. I ask that this evidence, this so-called White Book, be admitted as evidence. I will submit it to the Court later.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.

[A recess was taken.]

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal rules that you may cross-examine this witness upon the report, and the protocol will be admitted in evidence, if you offer it in evidence, under Article 19 of the Charter. That, of course, involves that we do not take judicial notice of the report under Article 21 of the Charter but that it is offered under Article 19 of the Charter and therefore it will either come through the earphones in cross-examination or such parts of the protocol as you wish to have translated.

DR. STAHMER: Witness, was the protocol or the record signed by you and the other experts compiled in the same way in which it is included in the German White Book? '

MARKOV: Yes, the record of the protocol which is included in the German White Book is the same protocol which I compiled. A long time after my return to Sofia I was sent two copies of the protocol by Director Dietz. These two copies were typewritten, and I was requested to make necessary corrections and additions if I deemed it necessary, but I left it without corrections and it was printed without any comments on my part.

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MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Just a moment Dr. Stahmer . . .

Mr. President, I believe that there is a slight confusion here. The witness is answering in regard to the individual protocol, whereas Dr. Stahmer is questioning him on the general record. Thus the witness does not answer the proper question.

DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I would have cleared this matter up on my own account.

[Turning to the witness.] Do you mean your autopsy protocol?

MARKOV: I mean the protocol I compiled myself and not the general record.

DR. STAHMER: Now, what about this general protocol or record? 'hen did you receive a copy of it?

MARKOV: I received a copy of the general record in Berlin where as many copies were signed as there were delegates present.

DR. STAHMER: Just a little while ago you stated that Russian witnesses had been taken before the commission in the wood of Katyn, but that, however, there had been no opportunity afforded the experts to talk with these witnesses concerning the question at hand.

Now, in this protocol, in this record, the following remark is found, and I quote:

"The commission interrogated several indigenous Russian witnesses personally. Among other things, these witnesses confirmed that in the months of March and April 1940 large shipments of Polish officers arrived almost daily at the railroad station Gnjesdova near Katyn. These trains were emptied, the inmates were taken in lorries to the wood of Katyn and never seen again. Furthermore, official notice was taken of the proofs and statements, and the documents containing the evidence were inspected."

MARKOV: As I already stated during the questioning, two witnesses were interrogated on the spot by Orsos. They actually said that they saw how Polish officers were brought to the station of Gnjesdova and that later they did not see them again.

Am; PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal thinks the witness ought to be given an opportunity of seeing the report when you put passages in it to him.

DR. STAHMER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Haven't you got another copy of it?

DR. STAHMER: I am sorry, Mr. President, I have no second copy; no.

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THE PRESIDENT: Can the witness read German?

MARKOV: No, but anyhow I can understand the contents of the record.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean you can read it?

MARKOV: Yes, I can also read it.

THE PRESIDENT: Can the witness read German, do you mean?

MARKOV: Yes, I can read German.

DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, may I make a suggestion?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, if you have only got one copy, I think you had better have it back. You can't have the book passing to and fro like that.

DR. STAHMER: I should like to make the suggestion that the cross-examination be interrupted and the other witness be called, and I will have this material typed in the meantime. That would be a solution. But there are only a few sentences...

THE PRESIDENT: You can read it. Take the book back.

DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I propose to read only a few short sentences.

[Turning to the witness.] Yesterday you testified, Witness, that the experts restricted or limited themselves to making an autopsy on one corpse only. In this report the following is set down-I quote:

"The members of the commission personally performed an autopsy on nine corpses and numerous selected cases were submitted for post-mortem examination."

Is that right?

MARKOV: That is right. Those of the members of the commission who were medical experts, with the exception of Professor Naville, performed each an autopsy on a corpse. Hajek made two autopsies.

DR. STAHMER: In this instance we are not interested in the autopsy, but in the post-mortem examination.

MARKOV: The corpses were examined but only superficially during an inspection which we carried out very hastily on the first day. No individual autopsy was carried out, but the corpses were merely looked at as they lay side by side.

DR. STAHMER: I should like to ask you now what is meant in medical science by the concept "post-mortem examination."

MARKOV: We differentiate between an exterior inspection, when the corpse has to be undressed and minutely examined externally, and an internal inspection, when the inner organs of the

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corpse are examined. This was not done with the hundreds of bodies at Katyn, as it was not physically possible. We were there only one forenoon. Therefore, I consider that there was no actual medicojudicial expert examination of these corpses in the real sense of the word.

DR. STAHMER: A little while ago you talked about the trees that were growing there on these graves, and you said that an expert explained the age of the trees by the rings counted on a trunk. In the protocol and the report the following is set down. I quote: ,

"According to the opinion of the members of the commission and the testimony of forest ranger Von Herff, who was called in as an expert on forestry, they were small pine trees of at least 5 years of age, badly developed because they had been standing in the shade of large trees and had been transplanted to this spot about 3 years ago."

Now, I would like to ask you, is it correct that you undertook a local inspection and that you convinced yourself on the spot whether the statements made by the forestry expert were actually correct?

MARKOV: Our personal impression and my personal conviction in this question only refer to the fact that in the wood of Katyn there were clearings where small trees were growing and that the afore-mentioned expert showed us a cross section of a tree with its circles. But I do not consider myself competent and cannot give an opinion as to whether the deductions which are set forth in the record are correct or not. Precisely for that reason it was judged necessary to call in a forestry expert, for we doctors were not competent to decide this question. Therefore, these conclusions are merely the conclusions of a competent German expert.

DR. STAHMER: But after having had a first-hand view, did you doubt the truth of these statements?

MARKOV: After the German expert had expressed his opinion at the conference of the delegates, neither I nor the other delegates expressed any opinion as to whether his conclusions were correct or not. These conclusions are set down in the record in the form in which the expert expressed himself.

DR. STAHMER: According to your autopsy report the corpse of the Polish officer which you dissected was clothed and you described the clothing in detail. Was this winter or summer clothing that you found?

MARKOV: It was winter clothing including an overcoat and a woolen shawl around the neck.

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DR. STAHMER: In the protocol it says further and I quote:

"Furthermore, Polish cigarettes and matchboxes were found with the dead; in some cases tobacco containers and cigarette holders, and 'Kosielsk' was inscribed thereon."

The question is, did you see these objects?

MARKOV: We actually saw these tobacco boxes with the name "Kosielsk" engraved thereon. They were exhibited to us in the glass case which was shown to us in the peasant hut not far from the Katyn wood. I remember them because Butz drew our attention to them.

DR. STAHMER: In your autopsy report, Witness, there is the following remark, and I quote:

"In the clothing documents were found and they were put in the folder Number 827."

Now, I should like to ask you: How did you discover these documents? Did you personally take them out of the pockets?

MARKOV: These papers were in the pockets of the overcoat and of the jacket. As far as I can remember they were taken out by a German who was undressing the corpse in my presence.

DR. STAHMER: At that time were the documents already in the envelope?

MARKOV: They were not yet in the envelope, but after they had been taken out of the pockets they were put into an envelope which bore the number of the corpse. We were told that this was the usual method of procedure.

DR. STAHMER: What was the nature of the documents?

MARKOV: I did not examine them at all, as I have already said, and I refused to do so, but according to the size I believe that they were certificates of identity. I could distinguish individual letters, but I do not know whether one could read the inscription, for I did not attempt to do so.

DR. STAHMER: In the protocol the following statement is made, and I quote:

"The documents found with the corpses (diaries, letters, and newspapers) were dated from the fall of 1939 until March and April 1940. The latest date which could be ascertained was the date of a Russian newspaper of 22 April 1940."

Now, I should like to ask you if this statement is correct and whether it is in accordance with the findings that you made?

MARKOV: Such letters and newspapers were indeed in the glass cases and were shown to us. Some such papers were found by members of the commission who were dissecting the bodies, and if I

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remember rightly, they described the contents of these documents, but I did not do so.

DR. STAHMER: In your examination just a little while ago you stated that only a few scientific details were contained in this protocol and that this was probably done intentionally. I should like to quote from this record as follows:

"Various degrees and types of decomposition were caused by the position of the bodies to one another in the grave. Aside from some mummification on the surface and around the edges of the mass of corpses, some damp maceration was found among the center corpses. The sticking together of the adjacent corpses and the soldering together of corpses through cadaverous acids and fluids which had thickened, and particularly the deformations that obtained from the pressure among the corpses, show that the corpses were buried there right from the beginning.

"Among the corpses, insects or remains of insects which might date back to the time of burial are entirely lacking, and from this it may be gathered that the shooting and the burial took place at a season which was cold and free from insects."

Now, I should like to ask you if these statements are correct and if they are in line with your findings.

MARKOV: I stated that lithe was said on the condition of the corpses, and indeed as can be judged by the quotation which I had in mind, only a general phraseology is used concerning the various degrees of decomposition of the corpses, but no concrete or detailed description of the condition of the corpses is made.

As to the insects and their larvae, the assertion of the general report that none were discovered is in flagrant contradiction to the conclusions of Professor Palmieri, which are recorded in his personal minutes concerning the corpse which he himself dissected. In this protocol, which is published in the same German White Book, it is said that there were traces of remains of insects and their larvae in the mouths of the corpses.

DR. STAHMER: Just a little while ago you spoke of the scientific examination of skulls undertaken by Professor Orsos. The record also refers to this matter, and I quote:

"A large number of skulls were examined with respect to the changes they had undergone, which, according to the background and experience of Professor Orsos, would be of great value in fixing the date of death. In this connection, we are concerned with stratified encrustations on the surface of the mush found in the skull as a residue of the brain. These symptoms are not to be found among corpses which have

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been in their graves for less than 3 years. Such a condition, among other things, was found in a very decided form in the skull of corpse Number 526, which was found near the surface of a large mass grave."

I should like to ask you now if it is correct that, according to the report of Professor Orsos, such a condition was discovered not only as is said here on the skull of one corpse, but among other corpses also.

MARKOV: I can answer this question quite categorically. We were shown only one skull, the one precisely mentioned in the record under the Number 526. I do not know that other skulls were examined, as the record seems to imply. I am of the opinion that Professor Orsos had no possibility of examining many corpses in the Katyn wood, for he came with us and left with us. That means he stayed in the Katyn wood just as long as I and all the other members of the commission did.

DR. STAHMER: Finally, I should like to quote the conclusion of the summarizing expert opinion, in which it is stated:

"From statements made by witnesses, from the letters and correspondence, diaries, newspapers, and so forth, found on the corpses, it may be seen that the shootings took place in the months of March and April 1940. The following are in complete agreement with the findings made with regard to the mass graves and the individual corpses of the Polish officers, as described in the report."

Is this statement actually correct?

THE PRESIDENT: I did not quite understand the statement. As I heard you read it, it was something like this: From the statements of witnesses, letters, and so forth. . .

DR. STAHMER: ". . . in complete agreement with the findings made with regard to the mass graves and the individual corpses of the Polish officers and described in the report." That is the end of the quotation.

THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't say that the following persons are in complete agreement, but that the following facts are in complete agreement. Is that right?

DR. STAHMER: No. My question is "Is this statement approved by you? Do you agree with it?"

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know, but you read out certain words, which were these: "The following are in complete agreement." What I want to know is whether that means that the following persons are in complete agreement, or whether the following facts are in complete agreement.

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DR. STAHMER: Special facts had been set down, and this is a summarizing expert opinion signed by all the members of the commission. Therefore, we have here a scientific explanation of the real facts.

THE PRESIDENT: Would you just listen to what I read out from what I took down? "From the statements of witnesses, letters, and other documents, it may be seen that the shooting took place in the months of March and April 1940. The following are in complete agreement." What I am asking you is this-

[Dr. Stahmer attempted to interrupt.]

Just a moment, Dr. Stahmer, listen to what I say. What I am asking you is: Does the statement mean that the following persons are in complete agreement, or that the following facts are in complete agreement?

DR. STAHMER: No, no. The following people testify that this fact, the fact that the shootings took place in the months of March and April 1940, agrees with the results of their investigations of the mass graves and of individual corpses. That is what is meant and that is the conclusion. What has been found here is in agreement with that which has been set down and determined scientifically. That is the meaning.

THE PRESIDENT: Go on.

DR. STAHMER: Is this final deduction in accord with your scientific conviction?

MARKOV: I have already indicated that this statement regarding the condition of the corpses is based on the date resulting from testimony by the witnesses and from the available documents, but it is in contradiction to the observations I made on the corpse which I dissected. That means I did not consider that the results of the autopsies corroborated the presumable date of death to be taken from the testimony or the documents. If I had been convinced that the condition of the corpses did indeed correspond to the date of decease mentioned by the Germans, I would have given such a statement in my individual protocol.

When I saw the signed protocol I became suspicious as to the last sentence of the record-the sentence which precedes the signatures. I always had doubts whether this sentence was contained in that draft of the protocol which we saw at the conference in Smolensk.

As far as I could understand, the draft of the protocol which had been elaborated in Smolensk only stated that we actually were shown papers and that we heard witnesses; and this was supposed to prove that the killings were carried out in March or April of 1940.

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I was of the opinion that the fact that the conclusion was not based on medical opinion and not supported absolutely by medical reports and examination, was the reason why the signing of the protocol was postponed and why the record was not signed in Smolensk.

DR. STAHMER: Witness, at the beginning of my examination you stated that you were fully aware of the political significance of your task. Why, then, did you desist from protesting against this report which was not in accord with your scientific conviction?

MARKOV: I have already said that I signed the protocol as I was convinced that the circumstances at this isolated military airfield offered no other possibility, and therefore I could not make any objections.

DR. STAHMER: Why did you not take steps later on?

MARKOV: My conduct after the signing of the protocol corresponds fully to what I am stating here, I repeat. I was not convinced of the truth of the German version. I was invited many times to Berlin by Director Dietz. I was also invited to Sofia by the German Embassy. And in Bulgaria, the Bulgarian Foreign Office also invited me to make a public statement over the radio and to the press; and I was requested to say what conclusions we had come to during our investigation. However, I did not do so, and I always refused to do so. Because of the political situation in which we found ourselves at that moment, I could not make a public statement declaring the German version was wrong.

Concerning that matter there were quite sharp -words exchanged between me and the German Embassy in Sofia. And when, a few months later, another Bulgarian representative was asked to be sent as a member of a similar commission for the investigation of the corpses in Vinnitza in the Ukraine, the German Ambassador Beckerly stated quite openly to the Bulgarian Foreign Office that the Germans did not wish me to be sent to Vinnitza.

That indicated that the Germans very well understood my behavior and my opinion on that matter. Concerning this question, Minister Plenipotentiary Saratov, of our Foreign Office, still has shorthand records about conversations which, if the Honored Tribunal considers it necessary, can be sent here from Bulgaria.

Therefore, all my refusals, after I had signed the protocol, to carry on any activity for the purpose of propaganda, fully correspond to what I said here, namely that the conclusions laid down in the collective protocol do not answer my personal conviction. And I will repeat that if I had been convinced that the corpses were buried for 3 years, I would have testified this after having dissected a corpse. But I have left my personal protocol incomplete

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and this is a quite unusual thing in the case of medico-judicial examination.

DR. STAHMER: The protocol was not signed by you alone, but on the contrary it carries the signatures of 11 representatives of science, whose names you gave yesterday, some of them of world renown. Among these men we find a scientist of a neutral country, Professor Naville.

Did you take the opportunity to get in touch with one of these experts in the meantime with a view of reaching a rectification of the report?

MARKOV: I cannot say on what considerations the other delegates signed the protocol. But they also signed it under the same circumstances as I did. However, when I read the individual protocols, I notice that they also refrained from stating the precise date of the killing of the man whose corpse they had dissected. There was one exception only, as I have already said. That was Professor Niloslavich, who was the only one who asserted that the corpse which he had dissected was that of a man buried for at least 3 years. After the signing of the protocol, I did not have any contact with any of the persons who had signed the collective protocol.

DR. STAHMER: Witness, you gave two versions, one in the protocol which we have just discussed, and another here before the Court. Which version is the correct one?

MARKOV: I do not understand, which two versions you are speaking about. Will you please explain it?

DR. STAHMER: In the first version, in the protocol, it is set forth that according to the conclusion which had been made, the shooting must have taken place 3 years ago. Today you testified that the findings were not correct, and between the shooting and the time of your investigations there could only be a space of perhaps 18 months.

MARKOV: I stated that the conclusions of the collective protocol do not correspond with my personal conviction.

DR. STAHMER: "Did not correspond" or "do not correspond with your conviction"?

MARKOV: It did not and it does not correspond with my opinion then and now.

DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Witness, were any of the bodies which were examined by the members of this delegation exhumed from the ground in your presence?

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MARKOV: The corpses which we dissected were selected among the top layers of the graves which had been already exhumed. They were taken out of the graves and given to us for dissection.

THE PRESIDENT: Was there anything to indicate, in your opinion, that the corpses had not been buried in those graves?

MARKOV: As far as traces are concerned, and as far as the layers of corpses were preserved, they were stuck to each other; so that if they had been transferred, I do not believe that this could have been done recently. This could not have been done immediately before our arrival.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean that you think the corpses had been buried in those graves?

MARKOV: I cannot say whether they were put into those graves immediately after death had come, as I have no data to confirm this, but they did not look as if they had just been put there.

THE PRESIDENT: Is it possible, in your opinion as an expert, to fix the date of March or April or such a short period as that, 3 years before the examination which you have made?

MARKOV: I believe that if one relies exclusively on medical data, that is to say, on the state and condition of the corpses, it is impossible, when it is a question of years, to determine the date with such precision and say accurately whether they were killed in March or in April. Therefore, apparently the months of March and April were not based on the medical data, for that would be impossible, but on the testimony of the witnesses and on the documents which were shown us.

THE PRESIDENT: When you got back to Sofia, you said that the protocol was sent to you for your observations and for your corrections and that you made none. Why was that?

MARKOV: We are concerned with the individual protocol which I compiled. I did not supplement it by making any conclusion, I did not add any conclusion because it was sent to me by the Germans and because in general at that time the political situation in our country was such that I could not declare publicly that the German version was not a true one.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean that your personal protocol alone was sent to you at Sofia?

MARKOV: Yes, only my personal protocol was sent to Sofia. As to the collective protocol, I brought that back myself to Sofia and handed it over to our Foreign Minister.

THE PRESIDENT: Is your personal protocol, in the words that you drew it up, incorporated in the whole protocol and signed by all the delegates?

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MARKOV: In my personal protocol there is only a description of the corpse and of the clothing of the corpse which I dissected.

THE PRESIDENT: That is not the question I asked.

MARKOV: In the general protocol a rough description only is made, concerning the clothing and the degree of decomposition.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, do you mean that your personal protocol . . .

MARKOV: I consider that the personal protocols are more accurate regarding the condition of the corpses, because they were compiled during the dissection and were dictated on the spot to the stenographers.

THE PRESIDENT: Just listen to the question, please. Is your personal protocol, in the words in which you drew it up, incorporated in the collective protocol in the same words?

MARKOV: My own protocol is not included in the general record, but it is included in the White Book which the Germans published together with the general record.

THE PRESIDENT: It is there, then, in the report, is it? It is in the White Book?

MARKOV: Yes, quite right. It is included in this book.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire. Yes, Colonel Smirnov, do you have another witness?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. I beg you to allow me to call as a witness, Professor of Medical Jurisprudence Prosorovski.

[The witness Prosorovski took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please.

VICTOR IL'ICH PROSOROVSKI (Witness): Prosorovski, Victor Il'ich.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me:

I, citizen of the U.S.S.R.-called as a witness in this case- solemnly promise and swear before the High Tribunal-to say all that I know about this case-and to add and withhold nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Witness, just before questioning you, I beg you to adhere to the following order. After my question, please pause in order to allow the interpreters to make the translation, and speak as slowly as possible.

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Will you give the Tribunal very briefly some information about your scientific activity, and your past work as a medico-judicial doctor.

PROSOROVSKI: I am a doctor by profession; professor of medical jurisprudence and a doctor of medical science. I am the Chief Medical Expert of the Ministry of Public Health of the Soviet Union. I am the Director of the Scientific Research Institute for Medical Jurisprudence at the Ministry of Public Health of the U.S.S.R.; my business is mainly of a scientific nature; I am President of the Medico-Judicial Commission of the Scientific Medical Council of the Ministry of Public Health of the U.S.S.R.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: How long did you practice as a medico-judicial expert?

PROSOROVSKI: I practiced for 17 years in that sphere.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: What kind of participation was yours in the investigation of the mass crimes of the Hitlerites against the Polish officers in Katyn?

PROSOROVSKI: The President of the Special Commission for investigation and ascertaining of the circumstances of the shootings by the German Fascist aggressors of Polish officers, Academician Nicolai Ilych Burdenko, offered me in the beginning of January 1944 the chairmanship of the Medico-Judicial Commission of experts. Apart from this organizational activity, I participated personally in the exhumations and examination of these corpses.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, perhaps that would be a good time to break off.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]

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Afternoon Session

THE MARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, the Defendants Hess, Fritzsche, and Von Ribbentrop are absent.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: May I continue the examination of this witness, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Please tell me, how far from the town of Smolensk were the burial grounds where the corpses were discovered?

PROSOROVSKI: A commission of medico-legal experts, together with members of the special commission, Academician Burdenko, Academician Potemkin, Academician Tolstoy, and other members of this commission, betook themselves on 14 January 1944 to the burial grounds of the Polish officers in the so-called Katyn wood. This spot is located about 15 kilometers from the town of Smolensk. These burial grounds were situated on a slope at a distance of about 200 meters from the Vitebsk high road. One of these graves was about 60 meters long and 60 meters wide; the other one, situated a small distance from this first grave, was about 7 meters long and 6 meters wide.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: How many corpses were exhumed by the commission you headed?

PROSOROVSKI: In the Katyn wood the commission of medical experts exhumed and examined, from various graves and from various depths, altogether 925 corpses.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: How was the work of exhumation done and how many assistants were employed by you on this work?

PROSOROVSKI: Specialists and medico-legal experts participated in the work of this commission. In September and October 1943 they had exhumed and examined the corpses of the victims shot by the Germans...

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Where was the examination of the corpses performed?

PROSOROVSKI: They examined them in the town and the neighborhood of Smolensk. Among the members of this commission were Professor Prosorovski; Professor Smolianinov; the eldest and most learned collaborator of the Medico-Legal Research Institute, Dr. Semenovski; Professor of Pathological Anatomy Voropaev; Professor of Legal Chemistry Schwaikova, who was invited for consultations on chemico-legal subjects. To assist this commission, they

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called also medico-legal experts from the forces. Among them were the medical student Nikolski, Dr. Soubbotin . . .

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I doubt whether the Tribunal is interested in all these names. I ask you to answer the following question: What method of examination was chosen by you? What I mean is, did you strip the corpses of their clothes and were you satisfied with the customary post mortem examination or was every single one of these 925 corpses thoroughly examined?

PROSOROVSKI: After exhumation of the corpses, they were thoroughly searched, particularly their clothing. Then an exterior examination was carried out and then they were subjected to a complete medico-legal dissection of all three parts of the body; that is to say, the skull, the chest, and the abdomen, as well as all the inner organs of these corpses.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Please tell me whether the corpses exhumed from these burial grounds bore traces of a previous medical examination?

PROSOROVSKI: Out of the 925 corpses which we examined, only three had already been dissected; and that was a partial examination of the skulls only. On all the others no traces of previous medical examination could be ascertained. They were clothed; and the jackets, trousers, and shirts were buttoned, the belts were strapped, and the knots of ties had not been undone. Neither on the head nor on the body were there any traces of cuts or other traces of medico-legal examination. Therefore this excludes the possibility of their having been subjected to any previous medico-legal examination.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: During the medico-legal examination which was carried out by your commission, did you open the skulls?

PROSOROVSKI: Of course. At the examination of quite a number of corpses the skull was opened and the contents of the skull were examined.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Are you acquainted with the expression "pseudocallus?"

PROSOROVSKI: I heard of it when I received a book in 1945 in the Institute of Medico-Legal Science. Before that not a single medical legal expert observed any similar phenomena in the Soviet Union.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Among the 925 skulls which you examined, were there many cases of pseudocallus?

PROSOROVSKI: Not one of the medico-legal experts who were examining these 925 corpses observed lime deposits on the inner side of the cranium or on any other part of the skull.

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MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Therefore, there was no sign of pseudocallus on any of the skulls.

PROSOROVSKI: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Was the clothing also examined?

PROSOROVSKI: As already stated, the clothing was thoroughly examined. Upon the request of the Special Commission, and in the presence of its members and of the Metropolitan Nikolai, Academician Burdenko, and others, the medico-legal experts examined the clothing, the pockets of the trousers, of the coats, and of the overcoats. As a rule, the pockets were either turned, torn open, or cut open, and this testified to the fact that they had already been searched. The clothing itself, the overcoats, the jackets, and the trousers as well as the shirts, were moist with corpse liquids. This clothing could not be torn asunder, in spite of violent effort.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Therefore, the tissue of the clothing was solid?

PROSOROVSKI: Yes, the tissue was very solid, and of course, it was besmeared with earth.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: During the examination, did you look into the pockets of the clothing and did you find any documents in them?

PROSOROVSKI: As I said, most of the pockets were turned out or cut; but some of them remained intact. In these pockets, and also under the lining of the overcoats and of the trousers we discovered, for instance, notes, pamphlets, papers, closed and open letters and postcards, cigarette paper, cigarette holders, pipes, and so forth, and even valuables were found, such as ingots of gold and gold coins.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: These details are not very relevant, and therefore I beg you to refrain from giving them. I would like you to answer the following question: Did you discover in the clothing documents dated the end of 1940 and also dated 1941?

PROSOROVSKI: Yes. I discovered such documents, and my colleagues also found some. Professor Smolianinov, for instance, discovered on one of the corpses a letter written in Russian, and it was sent by Sophie Zigon, addressed to the Red Cross in Moscow, with the request to communicate to her the address of her husband, Thomas Zigon. The date of this letter was 12 September 1940. Besides the envelope bore the stamp of a post office in Warsaw of September 1940, and also the stamp of the Moscow post office, dated 28 September 1940.

Another document of the same sort was discovered. It was a postcard sent from Tarnopol, with the post office cancellation: "Tarnopol, 12 September 1940."

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Then we discovered receipts with dates, one in particular with the name-if I am not mistaken-of Orashkevitch, certifying to the receipt of money with the date of 6 April 1941, and another receipt in his name, also referring to a money deposit, was dated 5 May 1941.

Then, I myself discovered a letter with the date 20 June 1941, with the name of Irene Tutchinski, as well as other documents of the same sort.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: During the medico-legal examination of the corpses, were any bullets or cartridge cases discovered? Please tell us what was the mark on these cartridge cases? Were they of Soviet make or of foreign make; and if they were foreign make, which one, and what was the caliber?

PROSOROVSKI: The cause of death of the Polish officers was bullet wounds in the nape of the neck. In the tissue of the brain or in the bone of the skull we discovered bullets which were more or less deformed. As to cartridge cases, we did indeed discover, during the exhumation, cartridge cases of German origin, for on their bases we found the mark G-e-c-o, Geco.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: One minute, Witness.

I will now read an original German document and I beg the permission of the Tribunal to submit a series of documents which have been offered us by our American colleagues, Document Number 402-PS, Exhibit USSR-507. It concerns German correspondence and telegrams on Katyn, and these telegrams are sent by an official of the Government General, Heinrich, to the Government of the Government General.

I submit the original document to the Court. I am only going to read one document, a very short one, in connection with the cartridge cases discovered in the mass graves. The telegram is addressed to the Government of the Government General, care of First Administrative Counsellor Weirauch in Krakow. It is marked:

"Urgent, to be delivered at once, secret.

"Part of the Polish Red Cross returned yesterday from Katyn. The employees of the Polish Red Cross have brought with them the cartridge cases which were used in shooting the victims of Katyn. It appears that these are German munitions. The caliber is 7.65. They are from the firm Geco. Letter follows." signed-"Heinrich."

[Turning to the witness.] Were the cartridge cases and cartridges which were discovered by you of the same caliber and did they bear the mark of the same firm?

PROSOROVSKI: As I have already stated, the bullets discovered in the bullet wounds were 7.65 caliber. The cases discovered during the exhumation did indeed bear the trademark of the firm Geco.

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MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I now ask you to describe in detail the condition of the body tissues and of the inner organs of the corpses exhumed from the graves of Katyn.

PROSOROVSKI: The skin and the inner organs of the corpses

were well preserved. The muscles of the body and of the limbs had kept their structure. The muscles of the heart had also kept their characteristic structure. The substance of the brain was, in some cases, petrified; but in most cases, it had kept its structural characteristics quite definitely, showing a clear distinction between the gray and white matters. Changes in the inner organs were mainly a sagging and shrinking. The hair from the head could be easily pulled out.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: From the examination of the corpses, to what conclusion did you come as to the date of death and date of burial?

PROSOROVSKI: On the basis of the experience I have gained

and on the experiences of Smolianinov, Semenovski, and other members of the commission...

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: One moment, Witness. I would like you to tell the Tribunal briefly what these experiences were and how many corpses were exhumed. Did you personally exhume them or were they exhumed in your presence?

PROSOROVSKI: In the course of the great War, I was often medico-legal expert during the exhumation and the examination of corpses of victims who were shot by the Germans. These executions occurred in the town of Krasnodar and its neighborhood, in the town of Kharkov and its neighborhood, in the town of Smolensk and its neighborhood, in the so-called extermination camp of Maidanek, near Lublin, so that all told more than 5,000 corpses were exhumed and examined with my personal co-operation.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Considering your experience and your objective observations, to what conclusions did you arrive as to the date of the death and the burial of the victims of Katyn?

PROSOROVSKI: What I have just said applies to me as well as to many of my colleagues who participated in this work. The commission came to the unanimous conclusion that the burial of the Polish officers in the Katyn graves was carried out about 2 years before, if you count from January, the month of January 1944-that is to say that the date was autumn 1941.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Did the condition of the corpses allow the conclusion that they were buried in 1940, objectively speaking?

PROSOROVSKI: The medico-legal examination of the corpses buried in the Katyn wood, when compared with the modifications

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and changes which were noticed by us during former exhumations on many occasions and also material evidence, allowed us to come to the conclusion that the time of the burial could not have been previous to the autumn of 1941.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Therefore, the year 1940 is out of question?

PROSOROVSKI: Yes, it is completely excluded.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: If I understood you rightly you were also medico-legal expert in the case of other shootings in the district of Smolensk?,

PROSOROVSKI: In the district of Smolensk and its environs I have exhumed and examined together with my assistants another 1,173 corpses, besides those of Katyn. They were exhumed from 87 graves.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: How did the Germans camouflage the common graves of the victims which they had shot?

PROSOROVSKI: In the district of Smolensk, in Gadeonovka, the following method was used:

The top layer of earth on these graves was covered with turf, and in some cases, as in Gadeonovka, young trees were planted as well as bushes; all this with a view to camouflaging. Besides, in the so-called Engineers' Garden of the town of Smolensk, the graves were covered with bricks and paths were laid out.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: So you exhumed more than 5,000 corpses in various parts of the Soviet Union.

PROSOROVSKI: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: What were the causes of death of the victims in most cases?

PROSOROVSKI: In most cases the cause of death was a bullet wound in the head, or in the nape of the neck.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Were the causes of death at Katyn similar to those met with in other parts of the Soviet Union? I am speaking of mass-shootings.

PROSOROVSKI: All shootings were carried out by one and the same method, namely, a shot in the nape of the neck, at point-blank range. The exit hole was usually on the forehead or in the face.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I will read the last paragraph of your account on Katyn, mentioned in the report of the Extra-Ordinary Soviet State Commission:

"The commission of the experts emphasizes the absolute uniformity of the method of shooting the Polish prisoners of

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war with that used for the shootings of Soviet prisoners of war and Soviet civilians. Such shootings were carried out on a vast scale by the German Fascist authorities during the temporary occupation of territories of the U.S.S.R., for instance, in the towns of Smolensk, Orel, Kharkov, Krasnodar and Voroneszh."

Do you corroborate this conclusion?

PROSOROVSKI: Yes, this is the typical method used by the Germans to exterminate peace-loving citizens.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I have no further questions to put to this witness, Mr. President.

DR. STAHMER: Where is your permanent residence, Witness?

PROSOROVSKI: I was born in Moscow and have my domicile there.

DR. STAHMER: How long have you been in the Commissariat for Health?

PROSOROVSKI: I have been working in institutions for public health since 1931 and am at present in the Ministry of Public Health. Before that I was a candidate for the chair of forensic medicine at Moscow University.

DR. STAHMER: In this commission were there also foreign scientists?

PROSOROVSKI: In this commission there were no foreign medico-legal experts, but the exhumation and examination of these corpses could be attended by anybody who was interested. Foreign journalists, I believe 12 in number, came to the burial grounds and I showed them the corpses, the graves, the clothing, and so on-in short everything they were interested in.

DR. STAHMER: Were there any foreign scientists present?

PROSOROVSKI: I repeat again that no one was present apart from Soviet experts of the medico-legal commission.

DR. STAHMER: Can you give the names of the members of the press?

lain PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, he was giving a long list of names before and he was stopped by his counsel.

Why do you shake your head?

DR. STAHMER: I did not understand, Mr. President, the one list of names. He gave a list of names of the members of the commission. My question is that: The witness has just said that members of the foreign press were present and that the results of the investigation were presented to them. I am now asking for the names of these members of the foreign press.

.

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THE PRESIDENT: Well, go on.

DR. STAHMER: Will you please give me the names of the members of the press, or at least the names of those who were present and to whom you presented the results of the examination?

PROSOROVSKI: Unhappily I cannot give you those names now here; but I believe that if it is necessary, I would be able to find them. I shall ascertain the names of all those foreign correspondents who were present at the exhumation of the corpses.

DR. STAHMER: The statement about the number of corpses exhumed and examined by you seems to have changed somewhat according to my notes, but I may have misunderstood. Once you mentioned 5,000 and another time 925. Which figure is the correct one?

PROSOROVSKI: You did not hear properly. I said that 925 corpses had been exhumed in the Katyn wood, but in general I personally exhumed or was present at the exhumation of over 5,000 in many towns of the Soviet Union after the liberation of the territories from the Germans.

DR. STAHMER: Were you actually present at the exhumation?

PROSOROVSKI: Yes.

DR. STAHMER: How long did you work at these exhumations?

PROSOROVSKI: As I told you, on 14 January a group of medico-legal experts left for the site of the burial grounds together with the members of a special commission.

THE PRESIDENT: Can you not just say how long it took-the whole exhumation? In other words, to shorten it, can you not say how long it took?

PROSOROVSKI: Very well. The exhumation and part of the examination of the corpses lasted from 16 to 23 January 1944.

DR. STAHMER: Did you find only Polish officers?

PROSOROVSKI: All the corpses, with the exception of two which were found in civilian clothing, were in Polish uniforms and were therefore members of the Polish Army.

DR. STAHMER: Did you try to determine from what camp these Polish officers came originally?

PROSOROVSKI: That was not one of my duties. I was concerned only with the medico-legal examination of the corpses.

DR. STAHMER: You did not learn in any other way from what camp they came?

PROSOROVSKI: In the receipts which were found, dated 1941, it was stated that the money was received in camp 10-N. It can

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therefore be assumed that the camp number was obviously of particular importance.

DR. STAHMER: Did you know of the Kosielsk Camp?

PROSOROVSKI: Only from hearsay. I have not been there.

DR: STAHMER: Do you know that Polish officers were kept prisoners there?

PROSOROVSKI: I can say only what I heard. I heard that Polish officers were there, but I have not seen them myself nor have I been anywhere near there.

DR. STAHMER: Did you learn anything about the fate of these officers?

PROSOROVSKI: Since I did not make the investigations, I cannot say anything about the fate of these officers. About the fate of the officers, whose corpses were discovered in the graves of Katyn, I have already spoken.

DR. STAHMER: How many officers did you find altogether in the burial grounds at Katyn?

PROSOROVSKI: We did not separate the corpses according to their rank; but, in all, there were 925 corpses exhumed and examined.

DR. STAHMER: Was that the majority?

PROSOROVSKI: The coats and tunics of many corpses bore shoulder straps with insignia indicating officers' rank. But even to-day I could not distinguish the insignia of rank of the Polish of ricers.

DR. STAHMER: What happened to the documents which were found on the Polish prisoners?

PROSOROVSKI: By order of the special commission-the searching of the clothing was done by the medico-legal experts. When these experts discovered documents they looked them through, examined them, and handed them over to the members of the special commission, either to Academician Burdenko or Academician Tolstoy, Potemkin, or any other members of the commission. Obviously these documents are in the archives of the Extraordinary State Commission.

DR. STAHMER: Are you of the opinion that from the medical findings regarding the corpses the time when they were killed can be determined with certainty?

PROSOROVSKI: In determining the date on which these corpses had presumably been buried, we were guided by the experience which we had gathered in numerous previous exhumations and also found support by material evidence discovered by the medico-legal

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experts. Thus we were able to establish beyond doubt that the Polish officers were buried in the fall of 1941.

DR. STAHMER: I asked whether from the medical findings you could determine this definitely and whether you did so.

PROSOROVSKI: I can again confirm what I have already said. Since we had great experience in mass exhumations, we came to that conclusion, in corroboration of which we also had much material evidence, which enabled us to determine the autumn of 1941 as the time of the burial of the Polish officers.

DR. STAHMER: I have no more questions to put to this witness. Mr. President, an explanation regarding the document which was just submitted; I have here only a copy signed by Heinrich; I have not seen the original.

THE PRESIDENT: I imagine the original is there.

DR. STAHMER: Thank you, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Colonel Smirnov, do you want to reexamine?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness; but with the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to make a brief statement.

We were allowed to choose from among the 120 witnesses whom we interrogated in the case of Katyn, only three. If the Tribunal is interested in hearing any other witnesses named in the reports of the Extraordinary State Commission, we have, in the majority of cases, adequate affidavits which we can submit at the Tribunal's request. Moreover, any one of these persons can be called to this Court if the Tribunal so desires.

That is all I have to say upon this matter.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer?

DR. STAHMER: I have no objection to the further presentation of evidence as long as it is on an equal basis; that is, if I, too, have the opportunity to offer further evidence. I am also in a position to call further witnesses and experts for the Court.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already made its order; it does not propose to hear further evidence.

DR. STAHMER: Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.

The Tribunal wishes to hear Dr. Bergold with reference to finishing the case of the Defendant Bormann, and the Tribunal also understands that counsel for the Defendant Von Neurath has some documents which he wishes to present.

Dr. Von Ludinghausen, have you some documents for Von Neurath?

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DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you present them now?

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, I have here two types of documents. One type includes the documents which I have already offered in presenting my evidence, and to which I have called the attention of the Court. They are all in the document books which have been submitted to the Court, and I believe it will be sufficient to hand these documents to the General Secretary.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ludinghausen, you have already offered them in evidence and they all have numbers, have they not?

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Then I have a number of documents, probably 12 or 15, which have also been included in my document books, in translation. However, I have not yet mentioned these documents in my presentation recently, and have not yet asked the Court to take judicial notice of them. If I may refer to them briefly, they are as follows:

A letter from Von Neurath to Hitler of 19 June 1933.

A copy of the minutes of the withdrawal of the Inter-Allied Military Commission in 1926.

A speech...

THE PRESIDENT: Will you kindly give them the exhibit numbers which they are to have as you offer them in evidence?

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: The first one is a letter to Hitler of 19 June 1933. What number will that letter have?

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: That is Number 12.

Number 32, minutes on the withdrawal of the Inter-Allied Military Commission.

Number 50, a speech of Prime Minister MacDonald of 16 March 1933.

Number 51, an article of Von Neurath on the League of Nations, in the periodical Der Volkerbund of 11 May 1933.

Number 52, Hitler's speech of 17 May 1933, the so-called "Peace Speech."

Number 53, a statement of the German Ambassador Nadolny, in Geneva, of 19 May 1933.

Number 54, a statement of the American representative, Norman Davies, at the Disarmament Conference, of 22 May 1933.

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Number 55, a statement of the German Ambassador Nadolny, at the Disarmament Conference of 27 May 1935.

Number 81, a speech by the then Minister Benes of 2 July 1934.

Number 82, an excerpt from the speech of Marshal Petain of 22 July 1934.

Number 83, the communiqué of the Reich Government of 26 July 1934.

Number 85, the communiqué of the Reich Government of 10 September 1934.

Number 86, a speech of Herr Von Neurath of 17 September 1934.

Number 88, excerpts from the speech of Marshal Smuts of 12 November 1934.

Number 119, a statement of the British Minister in the House of Commons of 20 July 1936.

'Those are the documents which I had not yet named, but which are already contained in my document books. Mr. President, may I take this opportunity to submit the following application, namely: The Court...

THE PRESIDENT: Those documents have all been translated, have they not, Dr. Ludinghausen?

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes, they are all included, in translation, in the document books which have been submitted.

Mr. President, may I now make an application to the Court? It is to the effect that the Court should permit me to call again the Defendant Von Neurath to the witness stand, for the following reason. As may be recalled, in the course of cross-examination Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe presented Document 3859-PS to the defendant, which document was a photostatic copy of a letter from the defendant, dated 31 August 1940, to the Chief of the Reich Chancellery, Lammers, with two enclosures. In this letter the defendant asked Lammers to submit the two enclosures to Hitler and to arrange, if possible, a personal conference or an interview on the question of alleged Gernianization mentioned therein. The two enclosures of this letter to Lammers are reports and suggestions on the future form of the Protectorate and concern the assimilation or possible Germanization of the Czech people.

The Court will recall that the presentation of this rather extensive document-it has 30 or 40 pages in this photostatic form if not more-surprised the defendant, and at that moment he could not recall the matter clearly enough to give positive and exhaustive information about these documents immediately. Nevertheless, in cross-examination, after a very brief look at these reports, he expressed doubts as to whether these reports, as presented here in photostatic form, were actually identical with the reports which

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were enclosed, according to his instructions, in the letter to Lammers to be submitted to Hitler. A careful examination of these photostatic copies was not possible in the course of cross-examination; and, of course, I myself, since I did not know the documents, was not able to comment upon them. Since Herr Von Neurath was obviously overtired and exhausted after the cross-examination it was not possible for me to examine the question and discuss it with him on the same day; that was possible only on the following day.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Von Ludinghausen, the defendant may be recalled for the purpose of being questioned about these two documents; but, of course, it is an exceptional license which is allowed on this occasion, because the object of re-examination is to enable counsel to elucidate such matters as this.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: You may call him.

[The Defendant Von Neurath resumed the stand.]

You are still under oath, of course.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Herr Von Neurath, do you recall the reason for your letter to Dr. Lammers of 31 August 1940 and your request for him to arrange a conference, an interview with Hitler?

VON NEURATH: Yes. As I said during my examination, in the course of the summer of 1940 I learned that various Reich and Party agencies, among others particularly the Gauleiter of the neighboring Gaue and Himmler, had sent more or less radical reports and suggestions to Hitler. I knew that Himmler, particularly, made quite extreme suggestions regarding a partition of the Protectorate area and complete annihilation of the Czech folkdom and people. These agencies were urging Hitler to put these plans into effect as quickly as possible.

Since, as I have already emphasized, I was opposed to such plans and, on the contrary, wanted to preserve the Czech people and folkdom and protect them against the intentions of Himmler and his companions to destroy them, I decided to make an attempt to induce Hitler not to carry out any Germanization plans but to forbid them and to send a categorical order to this effect to the Party and its agencies.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Do you recall how these two reports came about, which were to be included in your letter to Lammers?

VON NEURATH: As far as I can recall, things developed as follows: Either I myself dictated a report or one of my officials drew it up according to my instructions; I believe the latter was the case. But I recall definitely that this report was much briefer than the

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one submitted here in photostatic copy. I remember, furthermore, that the conclusions drawn in it were similar but much sharper and that the whole problem had to be considered very carefully.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Now, tell us how and why the second report of Frank came to be made.

VON NEURATH: From the various discussions which I had with Frank, I knew that he, too, was opposed to this partition of the Protectorate territory and the evacuation of the Czech population as proposed by Himmler and that he shared my opinions, at least to that extent. Therefore I considered it expedient, since Hitler had assigned Frank to me as State Secretary because he knew the Czech country and people very well, to point out to Hitler that this man, too, was opposed to Himmler's plans and advised Hitler against accepting them.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: But for what reason did you especially emphasize in your letter to Lammers that you shared the opinions expressed in Frank's report?

VON NEURATH: I considered it right to do this because Frank was a member of the SS and a subordinate and confidant of Himmler. On the other hand, I knew already at that time that Hitler was prejudiced against me, because of my attitude toward the Czech people, which he considered much too mild and lenient; and I was, therefore, convinced that together with Frank I would be more likely to be successful in influencing Hitler to my way of thinking than if I went to him alone. That was the reason why I suggested that Frank should participate in the report. For the same reason I did not write directly to Hitler, as I did usually, but to Lammers. According to previous experience, I had to assume that if I had written directly to Hitler, who on top of it was not in Berlin at the time, he would either not read the report at all or would refer it to Himmler.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: How was this letter to Lammers and its enclosures handled in your office?

VON NEURATH: I had the draft of the report of Frank submitted to me. Then I dictated my letter to Lammers, and I sent it with my report and Frank's draft back to Frank's office for a final review of the Frank report and for the dispatch of the letter to Lammers together with both versions. I did not see the letter to Lammers and the two reports again before they were sent out nor did I see them, by the way, in Berlin at the conference with Hitler.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: The last question. How did you reach the conviction that the photostatic copies, submitted here, of the two reports could not be identical with the reports which were enclosed in the letter to Lammers, according to your instructions'{

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VON NEURATH: As for the first report which I prepared, I have already stated that according to my recollection it was much shorter than the one submitted here in photostatic copy. Furthermore, this photostatic copy does not bear my signature, not even my initials. But it is out of the question that the final copy of this report, which was enclosed at my office in the letter to Lammers, would not have been signed or at least initialed by me; and the certificate of correctness, which, remarkably enough, is contained in this report and which was prepared by an SS Obersturmbannfuehrer, is not signed. The photostatic copy which is said to have been enclosed in the letter to Lammers does not even bear my initials. The most noticeable thing, however, is the certificate of correctness on the photostatic copy. This can have a meaning only if the document enclosed in the letter to Lammers, in spite of not bearing my signature, was enclosed in the letter nevertheless. But since the final copy which my office sent to State Secretary Frank's office with the letter to Lammers was certainly signed by me, this certificate proves that it was not the report signed by me which was enclosed in the letter sent to Lammers but another one drafted by Frank or by officials in his office. As for Frank's own report, the text of the photostatic copy here, to my recollection, is not identical with the text of the report which I approved and which I then sent on together with my report to Lammers...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Ludinghausen, we have heard the explanation more than once, I think, that the enclosure which was in the letter was not the same as the one which he drew up. It does not get any more convincing by getting told over again.

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: I only wanted to express it again. But if the Tribunal believes that that explanation has been made previously, I may dispense with it.

VON NEURATH: Mr. President, may I be permitted to make another statement as to how I imagine-of course, I can only imagine-these things took place? I am firmly convinced that if the two photostatic copies submitted here were actually enclosed in the letter to Lammer's, they were prepared in Frank's office, and enclosed without my knowledge. Another possibility would be, of course, that Czech...

THE PRESIDENT: We are quite as able to imagine possibilities as you are.

The fact is that the letter was signed in his name, was it not? The letter itself was signed?

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: And he refers expressly to the enclosure?

DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes.

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THE PRESIDENT: Very well; we understand it.

DR. VOW LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes. I wanted it to be made clear to the Court. For, as I have said, I could not thoroughly examine the remarkable characteristics of these two reports, the outer form and the text at the moment of cross-examination. I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Then the defendant can return to the dock.

Do you want to ask any questions, Sir David?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I do not think so. If the Court would just allow me, I should like to look at the document while the Court is recessed and see whether there is any point that might like to question on.

THE PRESIDENT: We will recess now.

[A recess was taken.]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have considered the matter; and I think it is really in the stage of argument and not crossexamination; but, My Lord, I should like Your Lordship just to observe, as the matter has been raised, that there is a certificate, given by Captain Hochwald on behalf of General Ecer, which states that the exhibit which was put in is a photostat taken from the original of a document found in the archives of the Reich Protector's of lice in Prague, so that that theory appears, from the certificate and the exhibit, that the copy-letter to Dr. Lammers and the two memoranda were preserved and found in the of lice of the Reich Protector. I do not want to say anything further in the matter.

THE PRESIDENT: Let the defendant come back to the witness box. Oh-no he need not come back. Dr. Bergold. Dr. Bergold?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Mr. President, since Dr. Bergold is absent at present, I should like to ask whether I may submit the three documents in my case which are still outstanding.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Kranzbuhler.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: I am offering as Exhibit Doenitz-100, the affidavit subscribed by the chief of the American Navy, Admiral Nimitz, as to American U-boat war against the Japanese Navy. The Tribunal already knows what I wish to prove with this. I need not read anything now because in the final presentation of my argument I shall have to come back to this point.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to have the document read, Dr. Kranzbuhler.

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FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: I have the original text in English, Mr. President, and I shall therefore have to read in English:

"At the request of the International Military Tribunal, the following interrogatories were on this date, 11 May 1940, put to Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz..."

THE PRESIDENT: You must have given the wrong date-1946, is it not?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: 11 May 1946. THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: ". . . put to Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, U.S. Navy, by Lieutenant Commander Joseph L. Broderick, United States Naval Reserve, of the International Law Section, Office of the Judge Advocate General, Navy Department, Washington, D. C., who recorded verbatim the testimony of the witness. Admiral Nimitz was duly sworn by Lieutenant Commander Broderick and interrogated as follows:

"Q: 'What is your name, rank, and present station?'

"A: 'Chester W. Nimitz, Fleet Admiral, United States Navy, Chief of Naval Operations of the United States Navy.'

"1. Q: 'What positions in the U.S. Navy did you hold from December 1941 until May 1945?'

"A: 'Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet.'

"2. Q: 'Did the U.S.A. in her sea warfare against Japan announce certain waters to be areas of operation, blockade, danger, restriction, warning, or the like?'

"A: 'Yes. For the purpose of command of operations against Japan the Pacific Ocean areas were declared a theater of operations.'

"3. Q: 'If yes, was it customary in such areas for submarines to attack merchantmen without warning, with the exception of her own and those of her Allies?'

"A: 'Yes, with the exception of hospital ships and other vessels under "safe conduct" voyages for humanitarian purposes.'

"4. Q: 'Were you under orders to do so?'

"A: 'The Chief of Naval Operations on 7 December 1941 ordered unrestricted submarine warfare against Japan.'

"5. Q: 'Was it customary for the submarines to attack Japanese merchantmen without warning-outside of announced operation or similar areas since the outbreak of the war?'

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"A: 'The reply to this interrogatory involves matters outside the limits of my command during the war; therefore I make no reply thereto.'

"6. Q: 'Were you under orders to do so?'

"A: 'The reply to this interrogatory involves matters outside the limits of my command during the war; therefore I make no reply thereto.'

"7. Q: 'If the practice of attacking without warning did not exist since the outbreak of the war, did it exist from a later date on? From what date on?'

"A: 'The practice existed from 7 December 1941 in the declared zone of operations.'

"8. Q: 'Did this practice correspond to issued orders?' "A: 'Yes.'

"9. Q: 'Did it become known to the U.S. naval authorities that Japanese merchantmen were under orders to report any sighted U.S. submarine to the Japanese Armed Forces by radio? If yes, when did it become known?'

"A: 'During the course of the war, it became known to the U.S. naval authorities that Japanese merchantmen in fact reported by radio to Japanese Armed Forces any information regarding sighting of U.S. submarines.'

"10. Q: 'Did the U.S. submarines thereupon receive the order to attack without warning Japanese merchantmen, if this order did not exist already before? If yes, when?'

"A: 'The order existed from 7 December 1941.'

"11. Q: 'Did it become known to the U.S. naval authorities that the Japanese merchantmen were under orders to attack any U.S. submarine in any way suitable according to the situation; for instance, by ramming, gunfire, or by depth charges? If yes, when did it become known?'

"A: 'Japanese merchantmen were usually armed and always attacked by any available means when feasible.'

"12. Q: 'Did the U.S. submarines thereupon receive the order of attacking without warning Japanese merchantmen, if this order did not already exist before. If yes, when?'

"A: 'The order existed from 7 December 1941.'

"13. Q: 'Were, by order or on general principles, the U.S. submarines prohibited from carrying out rescue measures toward passengers and crews of ships sunk without warning in those cases where by doing so the safety of their own boat was endangered?'

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"A: 'On general principles, the U.S. submarines did not rescue enemy survivors if undue additional hazard to the submarine resulted or the submarine would thereby be prevented from accomplishing its further mission. U.S. submarines were limited in rescue measures by small passenger carrying facilities combined with the known desperate and suicidal character of the enemy. Therefore, it was unsafe to pick up many survivors. Frequently survivors were given rubber boats and/or provisions. Almost invariably survivors did not come aboard the submarine voluntarily, and it was necessary to take them prisoner by force.'

"14. Q: 'If such an order or principle did not exist, did the U.S. submarine actually carry out rescue measures in the above-mentioned cases?'

"A: 'In numerous cases enemy survivors were rescued by U.S. submarines.'

"15. Q: 'In answering the above question, does the expression "merchantmen" mean any other kind of ships than those which were not warships?'

"A: 'No. By "merchantmen" I mean all types of ships which were not combatant ships. Used in this sense, it includes fishing boats, et cetera.'

"16. Q: 'If yes, what kind of ships?'

"A: 'The last answer covers this question.'

"17. Q: 'Has any order of the U.S. naval authorities mentioned in the above questionnaire concerning the tactics of U.S. submarines toward Japanese merchantmen been based on the grounds of reprisal? If yes, what orders?'

"A: 'The unrestricted submarine and air warfare ordered on 7 December 1941 resulted from the recognition of Japanese tactics revealed on that date. No further orders to U.S. submarines concerning tactics toward Japanese merchantmen throughout the war were based on reprisal, although specific instances of Japanese submarines committing atrocities toward U.S. merchant marine survivors became known and would have justified such a course.'

"18. Q: 'Has this order or have these orders of the Japanese Government been announced as reprisals?'

"A: 'The question is not clear. Therefore I make no reply thereto.'

"19. Q: 'On the basis of what Japanese tactics was reprisal considered justified?'

"A: 'The unrestricted submarine and air warfare ordered by the Chief of Naval Operations on 7 December 1941 was

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justified by the Japanese attacks on that date on U.S. bases and on both armed and unarmed ships and nationals without warning or declaration of war.'

"The above record of testimony has been examined by me on this date and is in all respects accurate and true."- signed-"Chester W. Nimitz, Fleet Admiral, U.S. Navy."

This document bears the number Doenitz-100.

As my next document I submit an expert opinion given by the former naval judge, Jackel, on the jurisdiction of the naval courts for the protection of the native population against encroachments by marines. This document has been admitted by the Tribunal and is available in translation and therefore I do not need to read it.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you give us the number?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Doenitz-49, Mr. President.

Then, Mr. President, some weeks back I made application to admit extracts from the records of a war crimes court at Oslo. These had been used by the Prosecution on the occasion of the cross-examination of Grossadmiral Doenitz. At that time they were not numbered. From these records I selected some extracts which prove that torpedo boat Number 345, whose crew were shot by reason of the Commando Order, was a boat which was charged with sabotage acts. Due to this fact the High Command of the Navy and also Admiral Doenitz were not informed about the treatment meted out to these prisoners, and this question was settled directly by means of discussions between Gauleiter Terboven and the Fuehrer's headquarters. I ask that the High Tribunal admit this document as evidence, since this document was used by the Prosecution. It would receive the Number Doenitz-107.

COLONEL H. J. PHILLIMORE (Junior Counsel for the United Kingdom): My Lord, I do not know if the Tribunal has before it the answer which the Prosecution have put into this application.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we have just looked at it now.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Broadly speaking, it comes to this, that we are quite prepared to put in the whole proceedings, but we should object to' extracts being put in; that is, amongst the affidavits and the evidence of some of the witnesses, material to support the points for which counsel for Defendant Doenitz contends. There is, on the other hand, a body of evidence the other way on all those points. That is why, My Lord...

THE PRESIDENT: Would it not save translation if you put in the passages in the document upon which you rely?

COL. PHILLIMORE: If that would be more convenient, My Lord, we can do that.

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THE PRESIDENT: I do not know how long the document is. It may be very long indeed.

COL. PHILLIMORE: The whole proceedings are very long. The trial lasted for 4 days.

THE PRESIDENT: Then it would be appropriate that you should pick out the parts on which you rely and Dr. Kranzbuhler can put in...

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is put in the answer that the document against this defendant, which was proved in the defendant's case, was an affidavit by the Judge Advocate, who set out the effect of the evidence accepted by the court.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal follows that, but it thinks that it is desirable that you should put in the passages upon which you as well as the defense counsel rely.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: May I submit this document, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: What is the number again, please?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Number Doenitz-107, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: And it contains extracts from these proceedings, does it?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Yes, extracts.

THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution will put in their extracts and we will consider them both.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Mr. President, then I have another question dealing with the documents of the case which we have just dealt with, the case of Katyn.

The witness, Professor Markov, mentioned the expert opinion given by the Italian expert, Professor Palmieri, which is in the German White Book. I should also like to submit this opinion as evidence, for the reason that there is no mention of insects being found on the corpses as Professor Markov asserted, but rather, "larvae." To me the difference appears to be that insects fly about during the summer whereas larvae conceal themselves during the winter months. Mr. President, may I submit this document?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I should like to make just one factual remark. In Professor Palmieri's report it was indicated that the "larvae" were discovered in the throats of of the corpses. I cannot imagine that "insects" were ever found in the throat of a corpse. That is why I do not think that the presentation of the document by defendant's counsel serves a purpose.

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THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbuhler, you are specifying a particular document referred to in the White Book, is that right?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: And you mean the whole of the document?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: That document is about one page, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Then you may put it in, subject to its being translated.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Very well, Mr. President.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, we are talking about a document which is an account on the dissection of a corpse performed by Professor Palmieri. It is no report but merely an account of an autopsy carried out by Professor Palmieri himself.

THE PRESIDENT: Is it referred to in the conclusions or not?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: It is put in the general record to the same extent as the record of Professor Markov. It is the findings on the autopsy which Professor Palmieri performed.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Mr. President, I have still another document in the case of Katyn, which I received from Polish sources just a few days ago. This is a document which was written in English and appeared in London in 1946. The title is, Report on the Massacre of Polish Officers in the Katyn Wood. In this document Polish sources are used, and I should like to offer this document to the Tribunal as evidence.

However, before I present certain lines of evidence, I would like to ask that the High Tribunal examine this document, for there may be doubts whether it can be used as evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbuhler, this document is printed for private circulation only. It has no printer's name on it, and it is entirely anonymous.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUHLER: Yes, Mr. President, these were the doubts which I entertained. I submitted this document as I assumed that in view of the importance of this case, the Tribunal would nevertheless want to take official notice of the contents.

THE PRESIDENT: No, the Tribunal thinks it would be improper to look at a document of this nature.

GEN. RUDENKO: Mr. President, I should just like to make one remark, as in fact the Tribunal has already indicated its decision. The statement of the defendant's counsel that this document was

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received from the Polish Delegation astounds me to say the least I should like to know from what Polish Delegation he received this document, because the Polish Delegation represented here could not possibly produce such a Fascist propaganda document as this

THE PRESIDENT: I think General Rudenko misunderstood what Dr. Kranzbuhler said.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, four interrogatories were granted to me on behalf of the Defendant Funk. When I presented my case, I could not yet submit these affidavits because they had not been translated. In the meantime, I have received these translations; and they have been submitted to the Tribunal. I ask to be permitted to present them briefly to the Tribunal at this point.

One of them, in Document Book Walter Funk, Supplement Number 2, will be numbered Exhibit Number Funk-16. This is the very comprehensive interrogation of the witness Landfried who held the position of state secretary in the Ministry of the Defendant Funk. This witness-I do not believe I need to read this record in detail-in answer to the first question, deals with the economic policy of the Defendant Funk in the occupied countries. He describes it in exactly the same way as it was presented by Funk. In answer to the second question, he deals similarly with the directions given by the Defendant Funk to the military commanders and to the Reich Commissioners of the occupied countries.

Under Question 4, the witness deals with the question of the plundering of the occupied territories. He confirms the fact that the Defendant Funk always opposed such plundering, that he fought the black markets, that he opposed devaluation of the currency, that he tried to maintain currency in the occupied territory on the original level.

In reply to Question 5, the witness describes in detail how the Defendant Funk tried to prevent financial overburdening of the occupied countries, especially to lower the costs of occupation as far as possible.

Then in the other questions, in Part 2, particularly in reply to Question 11, the witness discusses the activities of the Defendant Funk in the Ministry of Economics, with regard to German preparations in the event of a war.

Then, in reply to Question 12, the witness examines the position of the Plenipotentiary General for Economy and he concludes that in practice it was the position of a figurehead only. However, I do not wish to read these detailed statements and take up too much of the time of the Tribunal, for in the main these are only repetitions of statements that have already been made.

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In the last two questions, Numbers 14 and 15, the witness Landfried, who, as I have already said, was for years the defendant's deputy, describes the defendant's attitude toward the policy of terror and his fundamental attitude in regard to the use of foreign workers and similar matters. I ask that the Tribunal take judicial notice of this very detailed testimony and that these brief statements will suffice.

The next interrogatory comes from the witness Emil Puhl. This is the same witness who was interrogated in this courtroom about other questions, namely the question of gold teeth, et cetera. This is the interrogatory and the answers of the witness Emil Puhl, Document Book Funk, Supplement Number 3, Exhibit Funk-17.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, has this interrogatory been granted.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: He gave his evidence. We do not generally allow interrogatories to witnesses who have given their evidence.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, the matter was like this: As far back as December I had applied for this interrogatory and repeatedly asked for it, but it did not arrive. And only after 2 days of cross-examining, was this witness Emil Puhl suddenly-questioned by the Prosecution on entirely different subjects, that is the matter of gold deposits made by the SS, rather of gold teeth. This interrogation by the Prosecution did not refer to the interrogatory, which I believe was granted by you in February.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, what I mean is this: Supposing the Tribunal is asked to grant an interrogatory and it grants the interrogatory, and then the witness is subsequently called to give evidence. When he is called to give evidence, he ought to be questioned upon all the matters which are relevant to the Trial. The Tribunal does not want to have to read his evidence in one place and then his interrogatory in some other place.

Is there any objection, Mr. Dodd, to accepting it in this case?

MR. DODD: No, I have no objection, Mr. President. That is the situation. It was granted before Puhl was called. He was called here for cross-examination and I do not recall off-hand whether or not counsel inquired concerning these matters that are contained therein. We have no objections. It may be some annoyance to the Tribunal, which we regret.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, the witness Puhl, during his examination in the French camp, also had the questions of the cross-examination submitted to him which the Prosecution asked for and they were answered by him. Thus he was interrogated not only about the points which I raised, but also about the

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questions put in the cross-examination by the Prosecution. Therefore, I take the liberty of submitting this document, which is an interrogatory of Emil Puhl, Document Book Number 3, Supplement Number 3, and to which is assigned Exhibit Number Funk-17.

This witness Puhl, who was the vice president of the Reichsbank, in this interrogatory deals solely with matters entirely different from the subjects dealt with here in his examination, namely, the preparations which the Reichsbank President, Dr. Funk, made in the event of war; that is Question Number 1, concerning the handling of the clearing debts, and Question Number 2, about the higher valuation of the Danish currency...

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks you need not read the interrogatory but the Tribunal will allow it to go in in this case.

DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr. President. I wanted only to sketch the contents of this testimony briefly.

Then I submit additional testimony, given by a witness, which has been granted by the Tribunal. It is the testimony given by the witness Heinz Kallus, to be found in Document Book Walter Funk, Supplement 4, and is assigned Exhibit Number Funk-18. I also submit this testimony to the General Secretary and I should like to ask, in order to save time, that the Tribunal take judicial notice of its contents.

As my fourth and last document there is an affidavit subscribed by Mr. Messersmith, a supplement to a previous statement which has already been submitted to the Tribunal. This is very brief, in fact it is but one sentence and it may be found in the Document Book Walter Funk, Supplement Number 5, with Exhibit Number Funk-l9. I also submit this document. And now I have arrived at the conclusion of my report, Mr. President. Thank you very much.

DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I should like to submit to the Tribunal the testimony of the witness Dr. Bell. Up to now I had received this testimony only in English. I have fetched it again from the Translation Division so that I could submit it as Exhibit Number Rosenberg-50. In this connection I have another request. This interrogatory contains important questions dealing with the attitude adopted by the East Ministry in the matter of allocation of labor and it is of such importance that I ask the permission of the Tribunal to have it read. Since I am not entirely conversant with the English language, I should like to ask to have an interpreter read this interrogatory. ,

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, has this document been offered in evidence before: It was granted by the Tribunal, was it not, this interrogatory?

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DR. THOMA: Yes, it has already been granted by the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Is it necessary to read it? Can you not submit it in evidence and the Tribunal will consider it?

DR. THOMA: I leave that, of course, to the Tribunal to decide. I wanted to point out only that this is very important and decisive testimony in regard to the question of manpower allocation in the East Ministry. However, I shall leave that to the judgment of the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Can you not summarize it?

DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I have received only an English translation, and I do not wish to attempt to do anything with it. But I believe there are only 2 pages-the interpreter will read that in no time at all.

THE PRESIDENT: Let the interpreter read it then.

INTERPRETER: Exhibit Number Rosenberg-50:

"Copy. Completed interrogatory of Ministerialrat Dr. Bell, on behalf of Rosenberg.

"The witness, having been duly sworn, states:

"Q: 'Were you the permanent official (Sachbearbeiter) in the East Ministry (Ost Ministerium) in charge of the questions of labor and social policy?'

"A: 'Yes, I was one of 10 permanent officials; we originally started with 52, but as the East Front receded the staff was finally reduced to 10. I was in charge of the administration side of the labor and social policy. The head of the department was LandesbauernFuehrer Peukert.'

"Q: 'Was the East Ministry in favor of voluntary recruiting of workers in the East?'

"A: 'Yes, of voluntary recruiting only, my instructions being that it should only be carried out on this basis.'

"Q: 'Are any results known?'

"A: 'Yes, but the results were not as great as anticipated, only some 300,000 to 400,000 volunteered and most of these were from the Ukraine, Lithuania, and Estonia.'

"Q: 'Were there any negotiations about decreasing the quotas ordered by the Plenipotentiary General for Allocation of Labor (GBA)?'

"A: 'Yes, negotiations for decreasing the quotas took place but broke down owing to Sauckel demanding something like a million workers to be transferred to the interior.'

"Q: 'Who was responsible for the care and control of the East Workers (Ostarbeiter) in the Reich?'

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"A: 'The German Labor Front (Arbeitsfront) and the Reich Food Estate (Reichsnahrstand) were responsible for the care of the East Workers, the former for workers in munitions and heavy industry and the latter for agricultural workers.'

"Q: 'What was the point of view of the Department ASO . . .' "

DR. THOMA: ASO, if I may interrupt, is the Labor, Social, and Political Department of the East Ministry.

INTERPRETER: [continuing.]

"Q: 'What was the point of view of the Department ASO concerning the treatment of the East Workers in the Reich?'

"A: 'The view of my Department ASO was that the voluntary recruiting of workers on a free movement basis, thus taking them out of the barbed-wire-enclosed factories, would be the best method of treatment; we also advocated the removal of the arm badges, worn originally on the arm and later over the left breast, which carried the word "East" so as to distinguish them from workers from the West, who never at any time wore badges. The wording being later changed to "Greater Russia," "White Russia," and "Ukraine," the people from the Baltic States did not wear the arm badge. Certain Russians, small groups of Cossacks, Tartars, and one or two others were not compelled to wear the arm band, as they were anti-Bolshevistic and pro-German; and a certain proportion of these were eventually called up into the German Army. Some 7,000 youths of Ruthenia were called up by ASO and these were apprenticed at Junkers Works.'

"Q: 'Is the Central Office (Zentralstelle) for the eastern people (Ostvolker) at the East Ministry known to you? How was this organized?'

"A: 'Yes, it was considered to be a consulate for the East; members of the staff were partly Germans and partly local employees from the East, who were considered suitable for such employment Some of the foreign employees were placed at the disposal of the country offices to look after the interests of their fellow countrymen working in the countries. At the Central Office were instituted offices for each of the eastern states, each office being controlled by a German, some of whom had originally come from these states. There was also a welfare branch which was run by persons from these eastern states, to look after the comfort, et cetera, of their individual countrymen; there was also a religious branch which was run by clergy from these countries, but this branch was not very successful as there was an insufficiency of priests.'

l

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"Q: 'Now, with the help of the DAF, were the complaints followed up?'

"A: 'The interests of foreign workers were always looked after; missions were sent to the various concentrations of East Workers to find out how they were progressing and what kind of treatment they were receiving. These missions dealt with complaints submitted to them on their visits, but the Central Of lice had to deal also with written complaints received through the post.'

"Q: 'Is a printed circular to the authorities in the country known to you, that ordered a just treatment? Details? What was the story about the families who were evacuated by the Army Group Center and about the children 10-14 years old?'

"A: 'Yes, there was a circular issued, dealing with this question, and it gave details at great length for the just treatment of the East Workers. This circular was issued at the request of the Ministry of the East, through Sauckel. A second circular was issued by Rosenberg dealing with the just treatment of workers from the East only. I have no knowledge of this story, as this was dealt with entirely by the Army Group Center.'

"Q: 'Does the witness know the pamphlet issued by the East Ministry to the managers of enterprises concerning the nations of eastern Europe and the attitude towards them?' "

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, that affidavit does not seem to be short at all. It all seems to be cumulative. Every word of it is what we have heard before and heard not only once, but over and over again.

INTERPRETER: Dr. Thoma has just said that the last sentence is coming up.

DR. THOMA: There are two more short sentences.

INTERPRETER:

"A: 'There were two pamphlets issued; one issued by Sauckel, and the other issued in conjunction with DAF and Sauckel and the Ministry for the East.'

'Q: 'Has he one handy?'

"A: 'I have not got a copy of this pamphlet.'

"(Signed) Bell."

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the Tribunal rely on counsel, you know; and when you tell us that this is an important affidavit, we rely on what you tell us. In the opinion of the Tribunal, the reading of the affidavit was an absolute waste of the Tribunal's time.

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DR. THOMA: I should like to put another request to the Tribunal. I have asked that I be granted an interrogatory for the Reichshauptstellenleiter Dr. Oeppert, of the office of the Delegate of the Fuehrer for the supervision of the entire ideological and mental relation of the NSDAP under Rosenberg's office. This affidavit has not been granted to me, but I already have it on hand.

THE PRESIDENT: Has the Prosecution seen it?

DR. THOMA: No, Mr. President, I do not think so. I submitted an application to the General Secretary. Whether this request has already been transmitted to the Prosecution, I do not know.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the only application that we have got, as far as I can see, is an interrogatory to Dr. Koppen in lieu of Dr. Stellbrecht. Is that the one that you are speaking about now?

DR. THOMA: No. Mr. President, I was granted permission to interrogate Dr. Koppen instead of Dr. Stellbrecht, and the interrogatory has already been sent off. This, however, is a new application regarding Dr. Oeppert and has not yet been decided upon.

THE PRESIDENT: You had better submit it to the Prosecution and see-whether they have any comment to make on it, and we can take it up tomorrow.

DR. THOMA: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: In the case of Papen there are six interrogatories which have not been disposed of. Three of them have been returned in the last few days and are in the stage of being translated. I asked, when I received my last interrogatory, to be allowed to submit all six at one time to the Tribunal.

Then, without my taking any steps to get it, I received an affidavit 3 days ago from a foreign journalist, Rademacher von Unna, from Milan, Italy. This affidavit is being translated at present. I submitted it to the British prosecutor, and he does not object. I ask to be allowed to submit this affidavit later with the remainder of my documents.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly you may submit it. We shall then pass an opinion upon it as to its admissibility.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Thank you, Mr. President.

DR. ALFRED SEIDL (Counsel for Defendants Frank and Hess): Mr. President, I ask permission to submit the answers to the interrogatories from the witnesses which have not yet been submitted. As Exhibit Frank-l9 I submit the answers to the interrogatory given by the witness Dr. Ernst Bopple. Bopple was State Secretary in the Government General, and he has answered 41 questions in all.

As Number Frank-20, I submit the answers to an interrogatory given by the witness Max Meidinger. Meidinger was chief of the

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chancellery of the Government General. He has answered 43 questions. This interrogatory, as well as the first interrogatory by Bopple, as far as I could make out, has not been translated yet, although I handed these interrogatories in to be translated about 10 days ago. But attached to the interrogatory there is an English translation which was made during the interrogation.

As Number Frank-21 I submit the answers given by the witness Gassner, who answered 49 questions. Gassner was press chief in the Government General.

Number Frank-22 will be the interrogatory deposed by the witness Dr. Stepp, who in the end was president of the Court of Appeals (Oberlandesgericht). He deals mainly with the efforts made by the Defendant Frank in the years 1933 and 1934, in his capacity as Bavarian Minister of Justice, for the dissolution of the concentration camp at Dachau.

I should also like to take this opportunity, Mr. President, of pointing out an error of translation which does not refer to the documents of Frank but to a document which was submitted on behalf of the Defendant Hess. Although it was not used by the Prosecution with regard to the personal responsibility of Rudolf Hess, it is found in the document book, and the document concerned is Exhibit USA-696, Document 062-PS. That is a directive of 13 March 1940, the same directive which was mentioned last Saturday in the case of the Defendant Bormann, on which occasion the President himself read Figure 4 of this directive, which was submitted as an appendix to this directive of 13 March. There is a very serious error in translation, which completely distorts the sense of the directive and which, I must say, can have very dangerous consequences.

Under Figure 4 the words "unschadlich gemacht" (made harmless) were translated as "liquidated."

THE PRESIDENT: If there is an error in the translation, you had better apply to the General Secretary; and he will have the matter gone into by the Translation Division. ~

DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President, but the matter does not seem to be as simple as that. The translator obviously had the feeling himself that his translation was not reproducing the sense quite accurately, because in parentheses he added "unschadlich gemacht." In my opinion this sentence must be translated as follows: "Likewise, enemy parachutists are immediately to be arrested or made harmless." The sense was obviously that the parachutists...

THE PRESIDENT: I dare say, Dr. Seidl, but we do not have the document before us and we do not all of us understand the German

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language. Therefore, it had better be referred to the Translation Division. It is no good referring it to us.

DR. SEIDL: Then I shall put a written application to the General Secretary, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Have the Prosecution any objection to these interrogatories which Dr. Seidl has been dealing with? Have the Prosecution had the opportunity of putting cross-interrogatories if they wanted to do so?

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, I am told that we think so, with the possible exception of the last one. Perhaps I could look into it overnight.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will look into that point and let the Tribunal know.

My Lord, the Prosecution have a few documents to put in. I have eight, and I think my friend Mr. Dodd has three. I could do it very quickly, but it might be more convenient to do it tomorrow morning.

THE PRESIDENT: We will go into all these documents tomorrow morning. There will be some others on behalf of some of the other defendants. We will also hear the witnesses Kempka and Walkenhorst, I believe it is, whom Dr. Bergold wishes to call.

The Tribunal desires Dr. Bergold to be here tomorrow morning in order to be able to examine these witnesses.

The Tribunal will now adjourn.

[The Tribunal adjourned until 3 July 1946 at 1000 hours.]

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